What are the responsibilities of a submissive? (by Julala)

Mirjam hosted a very interesting discussion today for Princess (who was not well....get well soon Princess *hugs*) at the subs Haven (submissives only) discussion.  With permission from those present (and changes of name where appropriate) please see the transcript from the discussion which happened to take place in text today.

What are the responsibilities of a submissive?


[08:23] MM: so let's first do some brainstorming
[08:23] MM: What are responsibilities of a submissive, in Your opinion? Please just shoot what is on your mind.
[08:24] Rae: first and foremost, to be honest - to others but especially to herself.
[08:24] MM: oh yes, to not fool oneself about one's feelings, needs, current role ...
[08:25] Ivy: I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by "fooling one's self"
[08:26] EA: My role has often been to make my partner and the environment as pleasing as possible. Or at least that's how I saw it.
[08:26] MM: well, Ivy, I mean to be dishonest towards oneself
[08:26] Ivy: can you give me an example?
[08:27] EA: "there's absolutely nothing wrong! He's not cheating on me, I don't need monogamy, I don't need him to listen to my needs etc etc"
[08:27] Ivy: ah so pushing yourself past your own boundaires
[08:27] Ivy: boundaries
[08:27] Nameless: nods
[08:27] MM: OF course, for example to feel unhappy but then not admit it towards oneself, and compensate it by focusing on happiness of others.
[08:27] Dream nods, spunds so familiar
[08:28] Julala  : I think actually....whilst the common belief is that the Dominant has more responsibility....I actually think the level of responsibility that a person takes...is down to the individual, not the role. At times...I find the responsibility that I burden to be overwhelming....but I have nobody to blame for that except me...because I find it difficult sometimes to NOT take responsibility....that is one of my biggest challenges as a submissive.
[08:29] MM: THank You for saying this Julala. Really important to mention "role" and "individual" in this context
[08:29] Julala  : I can sometimes dress it up as my responsibility to serve Master in every way to the best of my ability....but recognise that sometimes I am just not giving up that responsibilty
[08:29] Julala  : when perhaps I should learn to do that better
[08:30] LM: i was thinking something quite same Nameless
[08:30] Julala  : possibly Nameless....that is possibly true...although I am not a mother...
[08:30] Julala  : but I am not sure that matters
[08:30] Nameless: you dont have to be a mother ot have the instinct of a mother
[08:31] Julala  : yes...indeed :o)
[08:31] MM: I tend to say it might happen more often with women than with men, yes ... but not specifically find a reason for responsibility feeling in the gender. there are many factors contributing to it. it is moslty a matter of an individual's psychological makeup and upbringing, i think.
[08:31] Julala  : definitely Mirjam
[08:31] Nameless: I agree those things have to play a part too
[08:32] Julala  : some might see it as arrogance....in a way...because it could be seen as thinking nobody can do the job as well as you
[08:32] Julala  : but I know that isn't how it feels
[08:32] Julala  : so I don't think it is arrogant
[08:33] MM: What I find awkward in the context of submissive responsibilities is that some people seem to think being sub means being the passive partner when it comes down to responsibilites for the wellbeing of the relationship
[08:34] Julala  : I wonder if that might be a wish for some...perhaps...
[08:34] MM: Such as "I don't need to care. I am not in the position to care. My Dom is the one deciding over the relationship and who cares for me. He/she is responsible when things go well and when things go wrong"
[08:35] Ivy: Deflecting responsibility is not good for any relationship
[08:35] Nameless: I know some that think that way...personally i think they both carry some of the responsability
[08:35] Dream: I think that depends on the person, how much control they are willing to give to someone else over their life. Some people like to not worry about anything and let others make all the decisions
[08:35] Rae: I think that happens in some cases. When you look at men who choose to submit because it balances their high pressure jobs and lives. They go to the dungeon and give themselves over because they need that release. I think less women do that though.
[08:36] MM: Do you think such could have to do with lacking ability of living as adults able to care for their issues?
[08:36] Julala  : I guess if someone doesn't feel they have any "control" over where the relationship goes...they may feel the have no responsibility....but in reality neither of those are true....
[08:36] Dream: Not always Rae, I have talked to a few female subs that are high power women in real life and they enjoy the diff
[08:37] MM: or is it more by choice, because it is more enjoyable, and/or allows more lazyness?
[08:37] Rae: I am sure Dream, absolutely.
[08:37] MM: I am such a woman, for example, Dream.
[08:37] Rae: In my experiences, though, I have 'seen' less women in that place. But that is only me and my own history.
[08:38] MM: But I am not a sub thinking my Dom has all responsibility.
[08:38] Dream: yes that is true Rae
[08:38] MM: when it comes to taking responsibility for the realtionship, i have and take as much responsibility as he does.
[08:38] Julala   nods
[08:39] Dream: I am just not capable of surrendering completely. I like a strong authority in my life but don't want anybody to make every single decision for me. I would feel that I lost control over my life if that was to happen
[08:40] MM: ok, when scribbling down some thought about Submissives Responsibilities it first came to my mind that would not express them as rules and protocol connected with the role "sub"
[08:41] Julala  : I think I could....if it were realistically possible to sustain....but in reality I don't think it is either possible or sustainable
[08:41] MM: Things such as "When You are submissive You have to do this and this". Or like some people i SL enjoy to express it "When you don't behave like this and this You are not a TRUE sub.2
[08:41] Dream: My Master told me that not every Dm could handle me because they would look at my not surrendering completely as topping from the bottom. Is a sub really supposed to just say Yes and Amen to everything?
[08:42] Dream: Exactly Miriam
[08:42] Julala  : no Dream...and most Dominants would not desire that in a sub
[08:42] Julala  : to just say yes to everythng
[08:42] Ivy: Nope they are supposed to be honest, right?
[08:42] MM: I personally don't tkae a normative approach towards BDSM things in general. I might be normative when it comes to issues of safety. though.
[08:42] Dream: good, it made me question my sub role
[08:43] Rae: *smiles* but lets be honest here... would a strong dominant want someone who was not strong themeselves? Isnt the exchange of energy and thought the exciting part? Would a strong person enjoy that from a "doormat"?
[08:44] Julala  : absolutely Rae....I have heard few Dominants requesting a doormat
[08:44] MM: Dream, definitely not. Some Doms might consider it an ideal of their sub if she said "Yes and Amen" to everything they say. Such Doms simply are not Your match. Your match are among the Doms who are bored by a "Yes and Amen" sub .)
[08:44] Rae: or a "yes girl" I like to call them
[08:44] MM: And there are plenty of intellectual men who enjoy it when a sub has opinions .)
[08:44] Dream: Yes my Master told me that he likes the fact that I don't submit 100%. I respect his authority but there are limits
[08:44] Julala  : I think with everything it comes down to the individuals in the relationship....it might be that a Dom/me has certain expectations of their submissive to take responsibility for things....another may not like it so much and wish to at least have the illusion of making all the decisions....and that Dom/me will need a submissive that can match to that
[08:44] Dream: yes Miriam
[08:45] Rae: I see those men that prefer "yes girls" as wanting to take the easy route. Wearing their dominance like a cloak. No fuss, no muss... but what do you learn in such a relationship?
[08:45] Rae: Where is the challenges, how can you be pushed, how can you grow?
[08:46] Julala  : defined expectations and protocols...within the relationship...will determine how it works for those people
[08:46] Dream nods
[08:46] MM: Rae asked "would a strong dominant want someone who was not strong themeselves?" ---- I think that some strong Dom - strong sub D/s couples enjoy to "play" it at times ... that the Dom is superstrong and the sub is "weak" so to speak, but then they are both aware of it. And outside of the bdsm scening context they act differently.
[08:47] Dream: yes exactly Miriam, thats how I am with my Master
[08:47] Rae: Many submissives are strong individuals and their submission is to a strong partner, not to the world at large. There has to be a tension (in a good sense) between two people who are equal in strength and completeness, a push and pull between worthy opponents. What thrill is there for a Dominant in having someone weak surrender their teeny bit of weakness?
[08:48] Julala  : hehe..well said Rae
[08:48] Nameless: nods
[08:48] Dream: yes
[08:48] MM: rae said " I see those men that prefer "yes girls" as wanting to take the easy route. Wearing their dominance like a cloak. " --- I wonder if such men and women might be the ones using "Master/Mistress" cloak to quickly get the sex they are so needy for. The sex that serves them, and is as they like it.
[08:48] Julala  : some Dom/mes in fact deliberately seek Dom/mes to "break" to their will and be their submissives
[08:49] Dream: In that case I think they are looking for the challenge
[08:49] Rae: indeed - I have had that attempted in my time... it is like a badge or something... 'wooo, look what I have done..."
[08:49] Julala  : I think it is a sign of a weak individual to seek a weaker submissive....
[08:50] Nameless: i agree
[08:50] MM: I am sometimes shocked that for some people "submissive" does not seem to be a context related term (such as being submissive towards a certain dominant) but their general approach to social relationships and decision making ... well or not making decisions and let others make them.
[08:50] Julala  : and unfortunately for them they do not realise that THAT is the badge they wear
[08:51] MM: and above all, i am shocked that even in the BDSM community this is promoted ... such as "When You are submissive You have to serve ANY Master in the room"
[08:51] Nameless: Doms who seek yes women in my opinion cant handle the word no
[08:51] Julala  : nobody really subscribes to that really so they? except in RP....
[08:51] MM: (Compare Old Guard, Roissy etc)
[08:51] Ivy: well that would be quite a task
[08:51] MM: I play context i can completely understand it and be ok with it
[08:51] Ivy: I don't know anyone who does this in RL
[08:52] LM: so am i Ivy
[08:52] Dream: yes I don't agree with that either
[08:52] Julala  : i mean...in our communities...except for those in RP...does anyone really believe those silly paradigms?
[08:52] MM: giggles
[08:52] Dream: I will call another Master Sir but thats it
[08:52] MM: well then i woder why you nevertheless hear so many people in SL say such :)
[08:52] LM: it's sexual games that can be either bdsm or not bdsm
[08:52] MM: but maybe it just reflect how may of the Doms ad subs in sL are RP'Ers
[08:52] MM: :)
[08:53] LM: yes , sexual players
[08:53] Julala  : thing is though....I don't hear people saying it that much...only that others say it....or from inexperienced people....or RPers
[08:53] MM: I would like to throw in a KEYWORD
[08:53] MM: I find it the primary responsibility of a sub to be SELF AWARE.
[08:53] MM: what are Your precious thoughts about it
[08:54] Ivy: I'm not dating anymore RPers
[08:55] Dream: but RP is fun if its not 24/7
[08:55] Rae: I think that is the truth in any relationship. You must be aware. Of yourself, your feelings, your needs. It is not guaranteed that others will know or understand.
[08:55] MM: i daresay 24/7 roleplay is not possible for longer than 24 hours
[08:55] MM: giggles
[08:55] Dream: lol yes
[08:56] Rae: and even giving yourself to another, you still must be honest and keep in mind your own feelings and needs and relay those.
[08:56] MM: i would try to maybe do it for 3 days
[08:56] Ivy: If you find it fun, more power to you
[08:56] MM: and test if it worked out
[08:56] Dream: but it is really exhausting to me to always talk in character
[08:56] MM: giggles
[08:56] Julala  : well I think each individual can develop self-awareness...but who of us can truly boast they are truly self-aware....I can't....I work on it daily :o)
[08:56] Ivy: I find that people I meet who are into RP don't take SL very seriously
[08:56] MM: such as being the totally object humiliated servig slave kept in cage and used whenever Master enjoys
[08:56] MM: grins
[08:56] Julala  : one thing though...I recognise that some use the RP badge to protect themselves....
[08:57] Ivy: How can you stand being ignored? I think I find that to be the most difficult part
[08:57] MM: but i think my mind would not even manage to stay in this role for 6 hours
[08:57] MM: grins
[08:57] Julala  : those that fear getting in too deep....use RP as a shield of protection
[08:57] Dream: Yes I have to agree. I look at SL as a game to live out my fantasies, so maybe I don't take it serious enough, Ivy
[08:57] Ivy: and I'm here as an extension of my RL, it's very serious to me
[08:58] Rae: I am here as I am in RL. This is no game to me.
[08:58] MM: aka self awareness ... Julala i heard some subs speak as if they did not dare to have a idea of themselves and be self aware except for having the idea of being another's property and make their self image dependant on all they say about the sub
[08:58] Ivy: The only thing that is different in SL for me is that I have better clothes in SL :-)
[08:58] MM: do you think such is all roleplay?
[08:59] Julala  : ...for example...some people that have RL responsibilities such as spouses and children ...(some)...do not wish to let it past the superficial and into their hearts...and therefore use RP to prevent "infiltration""
[08:59] Rae: and perkier breasts... lol
[08:59] Dream: yes Julala
[08:59] Julala  : hehe Rae
[08:59] MM: i agree Julala
[09:00] MM: It is important that a sub is aware of his/her own needs, of his/her limits, of what could be a welcomed treat for him/her, and what real punishment, when doing BDSM
[09:00] Julala  : agreed
[09:00] Dream: I look at it this way, that SL Is all RP in a way. If I am an elf or a hedgehog for example, that is living a fantasy. Or my job as a stripper. I couldnt do that in RL
[09:00] Nameless: Mirjam, i think those that make there self image dependent on others have slef image issues lol
[09:00] MM: When I hear some people in SL say it is inadequate for a sub to have own opinions, then it makes my eyes roll --- i certainly see no point in denying a sub the right for self awareness and acting in concordance with the outcome -- ideally, after communication about it with the Dominant.
[09:01] MM: Yes dream, seen this way, definitely
[09:01] MM: i am also no bdsm teacher in RL
[09:01] MM: giggles
[09:01] Dream: lol Miriam
[09:01] MM: yet i am a teacher
[09:01] Julala  : but as with all development of self-awareness...I think it not necessarily possible to "enter" the lifestyle with that awareness....and maybe discovering it is part of the journey....as hard as it may seem
[09:01] MM: giggles
[09:01] MM: and i teach my Dom about the subbie Mir
[09:01] MM: hehe
[09:01] Dream: subbie Mir?
[09:02] Julala  : you're a hedgehog Dream?
[09:02] Julala   giggles
[09:02] Dream: yes at times lol
[09:02] MM: yes Dream?
[09:02] Nameless: lol
[09:02] Julala   wants a hedgehog avatar now
[09:02] MM: The subbie Mir is no RP., she exists in RL
[09:02] MM: ;)
[09:02] Dream: I love it. I roll instead of walking..Its too cute
[09:02] Ivy: I've been a skunk :-)
[09:02] MM: lol
[09:02] Dream: lol
[09:02] Julala does have a ferret
[09:02] Julala  : :o)
[09:02] Dream: never tried that one yet
[09:02] Julala   giggles
[09:03] Julala  : BUT what is the responsibility of a rodent?
[09:03] MM: What I find tricky i the context of Self awareness and D/s relationships is the awareness of one's role within the relationship
[09:03] Julala  : :o)
[09:03] MM: the general role and the current role
[09:03] Dream: nothing lol...thats why its so fun at times
[09:03] MM: cause we act in different roles, depending on situational contexts who change
[09:03] MM: and vary
[09:04] Dream nods
[09:04] Julala  : yes...Mirjam...it can be very fluid...and I believe it is the people that can adjust and flow with the fluidity of D/s that will enjoy a sustainable relationship
[09:04] MM: I think each sub in a D/s relationship has to check back for him-/herself which influence and impact living in a D/s relationship with a certain partner has on his/her life.
[09:05] Julala  : ..bit like juggling jelly at times...
[09:05] Dream: yes
[09:05] MM: And that in this sense it might even be a risk to be a sub in a D/s relationship, because this role might prevent us from reflecting on this.
[09:06] Julala  : absolutely Mir....that is a toughy though....because what if they find there are some negative imapcts on their own life....then comes the question of loyalty..."working at it"...faith and love...
[09:06] MM: Aww Julala i will put this on my favorite quotes notecard if i may "I believe it is the people that can adjust and flow with the fluidity of D/s that will enjoy a sustainable relationship"
[09:06] Julala   smiles
[09:07] Julala  : thankies *curtsies*
[09:07] MM: Yes exactly, that dilemma between "Feeling happy" and "Do good to the Dom/be loyal"
[09:07] Julala   nods
[09:07] Ivy: you risk losing your relationship when you re-evaluate it
[09:07] MM: I could write a book about it.
[09:07] Julala  : phew...its bloody hard work sometimes this D/s no?
[09:07] Julala  : haha
[09:07] MM: it is
[09:07] Nameless: lol
[09:07] Dream: yes
[09:08] Julala  : must be the maso in us that keeps us coming back for more ;o)
[09:08] Rae: nods
[09:08] Nameless: not for me atm i'm footlose and fancy free
[09:08] MM: pooh and my dominant RL parter told me he believed I'd be happier without him
[09:08] MM: and i felt so differetly
[09:08] MM: ad then all combined with my loyalty
[09:09] Julala  : glutens for punishment....but...what glorious punishment it is sometimes :o)
[09:09] MM: it was tough!
[09:09] Nameless: i bet it was :(
[09:09] MM: and then i also knew he is happier with me than without me
[09:09] Rae: I have learned more about myself in my submission - and that is quite difficult because we do like to ignore things about ourselves
[09:09] Julala  : very Mir...and sometimes it leads to questioning your own mind...and feelings....
[09:09] MM: but yet he would have let me go just for the sake of myself
[09:09] MM: grrr
[09:09] MM: it run so cross with my submissiveness
[09:10] Dream: yes, my journey as a sub has taught me a lot about myself as well
[09:10] Julala  : torture Mir....
[09:10] MM: well we are still together, but he is not domming me anymore
[09:10] Julala  : *hugs Mir*
[09:10] MM: we just love each other, that is a very strong bond
[09:11] MM: sometimes it felt like us two were masochists with staying together
[09:11] Julala  : yes...love requires no roles....
[09:11] MM: nods
[09:11] MM: yes and can also bear weakness ... when one cannot perform in a role anymore
[09:12] MM: What about this statement: " The sub alone can decide if the relationship and way of the lifestyle has a good influence on his/her life or a bad one."
[09:13] Julala  : not sure Mir....because at times ...I don't always know what is best for me...truly....

[09:19] MM: Another thought on self-awareness: A sub should be aware of the likelihood that her/his relationship could fail sooner or later and reflect if she could bear to lose his/her Dominant, and what then could probably help her.
[09:19] Rae: That is a good topic just in itself.
[09:19] MM: In my opinion this also belongs to self-awareness of a submissive. Not only the dealing with the idealistic positive seventh heaven of D/s, also with the "What if it fails?" . "Can I bear to have given away myself and then maybe, one day, be alone, without my Dominant?"
[09:19] Julala  : definitely...but it is important to be accepting of this....as well...many refuse to consider this as a possibility because they fear it....
[09:20] MM: yes much so
[09:20] MM: The emotional bond that can be very deepgoing in D/s is often underestimated, as far as my experience goes.
[09:20] MM: So that a sub might mentally know it is better for her to leave a domiant, yet be emotionally stuck,.
[09:21] Julala  : but then...even considering and accepting the possibility that it may not last....will not make it hurt any less...and even discover you were more dependant than you realised when it happens
[09:21] Dream: I think that is one of the reasons why I hold back, so I am less devastated and lost. It's a self protection in a way. If you totally surrender to the other person they become a big part of yourself
[09:22] Rae: Hmm.. interesting direction of topic.. Again, I think it warrants a topic to itself and would love to attend that and get others thoughts on it.
[09:22] Nameless: question thou...Does the Dom give as much of himself in the relationship as the sub. If so then the breakup would have to be mutual if its not then he did not give himself up to the role fully?
[09:22] MM: Yes Dream i can very much relate to this
[09:22] Dream: And yes of course, it will hurt when I ends no matter what
[09:22] MM: We can do this soon Rae!!!!
[09:23] Dream: Nameless, I know a few Doms that lost their subs and they were hurting so bad that they stayed out of sl for a while, so yes the hurt is mutual I think
[09:24] Julala  : Dream...so true...I have come to accept in life that every relationship WILL end...without exception...even one that lasts till death...will end with one being left alone....so....each relationship is a chapter in my book....and each has its highs and lows, etc.
[09:24] MM: But You know that, else I would not have asked You if You liked to support subs haven :)
[09:24] MM: grins
[09:24] Dream: yes Julala :)
[09:24] Rae: of course, just a discussion of expectations and needs
[09:24] Julala  : and yes...I think Dom/mes will give as much....and hurt as much....and feel many of the same losses as any submissive
[09:24] Rae: and yes... it does go both ways, as it should
[09:24] MM: Each Dom that gave me the feeling of owing me is still owning me to some extent. Even if we split up.
[09:25] Dream: yes it is a strong relationship and will stay with you even after it ends
[09:25] Nameless smiles
[09:25] MM: I would never want to be together with a dominant unable to feel hurt
[09:26] MM: a cold " I am the strong Dom in control of all things" robot, inhuman? no thanks
[09:26] Julala  : if your life is a book...it can only be so with chapters...if you take away some of those chapters from your past....you would not be complete....they make up part of your story
[09:26] MM: a nice image Julala
[09:26] Rae: well said Julala
[09:26] Dream: I think it is impossible not to hurt if you care at all about the other person. there will always be a void when they are gone
[09:26] Julala  : :o)
[09:27] Dream: Love that concept Julala :)
[09:27] MM: Oki as our time is already up ... just let me mention the two other main responsibilities of a sub
[09:27] MM: as i see them
[09:27] MM: communication and safety (including safeword and/or other safety precautions)

Thanks to everyone that took part.  Great discussion :o)